Re: [rumori] outlaw (fwd)

Anki Toner (
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:41:16 +0100

Steev wrote:

> (btw, i've never NOT sampled something because of the law. Pretty much
> all of the music i've composed in the last 3 or 4 years and most of it in
> the last 9 has been created from samples. I've never cared that i'm
> "stealing" someone's IP, worried that i might get in legal trouble, at
> least before the fact [once Deconstructing Beck was getting so much
> attention, i admit i was starting to wonder]. But some artists have
> worried, like for instance EBN, who have "re-created" recordings rather
> than sample something they don't have clearance for. And i think that's a
> shame. When i saw EBN compromising what was originally a great aesthetic,
> watering down their work, that saddened me. I keep hearing about this
> kind of thing more and more and more. Like musicians who do an album's
> worth of songs heavy with illegal samples, then leave them out when they
> mix down, and only use those samples when they play live.)

Sometimes it is because of recording contracts. I have always tried not
to sign a contract I could be ashamed of, if you know what I mean, even
if that means I will olways stay below (sometimes, much below) the limit
of, say, 500 copies sold of my reords. Anyway, I do not think I could
have made a living out of it either.

> I think the constant cause of most friction in this arena is conflict
> between commerce and culture. if no one cared to make money from
> "art" then there would be no concerns about "piracy".
> but that's why there needs to be a distinction made, because
> the other side is going to use as it's main argument that
> infringing copyright is done simply to make undeserved cash. People need
> to understand that there can be a motivation for it that is not about
> money. By condoning outright piracy we muddle that point.

The fan bootlegging a complete Bob Dylan tour (73 conceerts all in all)
surely has a much higher motivation than money. It's just that also he
(and not only Negativland) needs some money to do so. I mention the Negs
because they have already debated on that.

Of course, there are cases of straight piracy. But even those, I feel
they just prove that CDs are too expensive. If it can be done for 6
dollars, why are they charging us eighteen? (PS: I don't know, as you
probably noticed, the price of a CD in USA).

> ->Aren't we trying to establish a limit (call it "fair use" if you want,
> ->admit that the "plunder" part of "plunderphonics" was just a joke -
> ->you'll find yourselves admitting that it was a bad joke, and a terrible
> ->mistake of course), a safe limit within which we can work respectfully,
> ->and then claim we are working without restrictions?
> there are limits to everything. fact of life. ( case in point - on
> another list i'm on there's been a huge argument about a performance
> artist who goes by the name Death Squad, who did a show here in san
> francisco where he held a loaded gun up to audience members' heads.
> Afterwards he claimed that the piece's artistic merits provided sufficient
> blessing for his actions, while others argued that even art is not an
> excuse for violating other's civil rights. I tend to agree with them. You
> can complain all you want about restrictions of your freedoms (artistic or
> otherwise), but face it, your freedom ends at the point you're opressing
> someone else. period.)

What list is that?

Andrew Lander wrote:

>It's arguable that holding a loaded gun to someone's head has artistic
>merit. What if the artist pulled the trigger?

How do they know it was loaded if he didn't? I don't know much about
guns, or about people who like guns, but I do not see the pint in
loading the gun if he didn't mean to shoot. And shooting in the air is
probably ridiculous after all the tension he built up. May be he did
shoot in the air first (then they didn't know if there was another
bullet anyway). Sorry, just writing nonsense.

> ->That I know nobody has destroyed any work. I just downloaded all the
> ->"destroyed works". They seemed healthy.
> "ALL"? hah. you've got to be kidding.

I didn't buy ALL the "legal" works either.

> and since you asked, the main reason i started this list is to get away
> from the repetitive lowlevel crap of the Negativland list, Snuggles. I
> wanted there to be a place where a certain level of background
> information and common point of view could be assumed, so that more
> in-depth conversation could be had, and where the focus could be on
> concepts and ideas and artistic practice, rather than fannish trivia and
> the same old questions ("on track 9 of 'Escape from Noise' i think they're
> using samples! right? hey, anyone heard of a CD called 'Plexure'?")

 I totally agree with you about "Snuggles". Your list is much better,
though sometimes redundant with "Pluderphonia", which is also OK.

> i feel the same exact way. i'm unsure how you interpreted anything i've
> said to be in favor of censoring anyone. ??

Ok, forget it.

> perhaps my shock and impatient attempts to understand have been taken as
> an attempt to censor. that was not my intention. (On the other hand,
> i reserve my prerogative to try to keep the list focused, if neccesary.)

Of course.

> here's a good question: is an intolerance for fools the same as
> censorship?

This is a good question indeed! Anuway, the concept of "fools" depends
of your own psychic situation. I mean, there are days when there seem to
be more fools around, and that probably depends on you. Apart from that,
I also exert a great deal of intolerance for fools. But I am not
generally proud of it.

Anki Toner

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