Re: [rumori] RE: pho: "threshold" for copyright??

From: Anki Toner (
Date: Tue Mar 06 2001 - 11:06:44 PST

I agree with Steev: distinctions are problematic, even if "you know the

To Steev's questions I would add:

Isn't a Rolling Stones CD a commercial for their world tour? (or is it
the other way round?)

I am not so sure about "It's an art in a medium 'advertising' the same
art in another medium". As Don himself said, "follow the money for


En/Na Don Joyce ha escrit:
> Responses below.
> DJ
> >Thu, 1 Mar 2001 found Don Joyce writing:
> >
> >->achieve fair use for collage. Someone COULD claim their compilation of
> >->samples IS a work of art, but it should and would be quickly thrown out of
> >->court, hopefully with the admonition, "You can do better than this..."
> >->Honestly, the "is it or isn't it?" art factor for courts would be a hell of
> >->a lot easier than the "is it or isn't it" pornography factor they deal with
> >->all the time. Once you know the rules, distinctions are comparitively clear
> >->and easy.
> >
> Steve - Hopefully. This appears to be exactly one of the very big
> >problems in our fight. Can we really ask a judge to decide
> >what is art and what is not? We can but how many are really
> >qualified? Or even willing?
> DJ - No choice, as long as commerce continues to prosecute art, art is
> going to find itself in court. We'ld better have some knowledgeable
> representation there. I recommend a requestable "Art Court" hearing for any
> IP copyright infringement contention. The Art Court (don't laugh!) would be
> presided over by judges who actually ARE both qualified and willing to
> distinguish collage as art from compilations and counterfeiting.
> >
> >Is Britney Spears' music art?
> DJ - Yes.
> >
> >Are her videos?
> DJ - Yes.
> Aren't videos just a commercial for a
> >record?
> DJ - It's an art in a medium "advertising" the same art in another medium.
> Both are art and neither is advertising for anything else outside itself,
> its own qualities, per sae. It's her record and her video - artworks - none
> of the lyrics in either actually tell you to please buy the thing you're
> listening to. And even that would make them self-advertising at most. See,
> there is no product outside Britney, no other product paying Britney to be
> Britney the product, though she can rent out herself for such purposes. And
> you can advertise yourself in your own art forever and still be art. It's
> when something outside her "art" is paying the bills and writing the script
> that it becomes advertising. No one should be forced into compulsary
> participation with another's product, but you can hawk your own to death.
> so What about Bill Viola's videos? They're for sale for
> >large sums of money. Isn't a gallery show, in a way, just an
> >ad for some art?
> DJ - The gallery show IS advertising, in this case selling something inside
> it rather than something outside it... the gallery is a business, not an
> art. The videos themselves are the only art, if they deserve to be. And if
> they deserve to be, and no copies otherwise exist, they might be
> individually worth a large sum to someone. That's art for you.
> >very problematic.
> DJ - I'd say only slightly problematic compared to copyright
> non-distinctions as they are. Commercial speech is not free speech. It may
> be self-censoring but it's nevertheless speech scripted and censored by
> others. You can't be both free AND censored speech. Maybe Orwell was on to
> something here...
> >of course i'm engaging in devil's advocacy here, i
> >agree with your basic distinction, but i fear that that will
> >never be one clearly made in a court or Congress. It's a
> >bit like the fight to limit billboards, etc. Commercial
> >speech is just speech, say the marketeers, and hence is
> >protected by the First Amendment. Trying to draw the line
> >and say commerce must be limited, must NOT have the same
> >rights as a person (much less an "artist", whatever that is)
> >is a big big fight, bigger than this one about copyright.
> >
> >smh
> >
> >Steev Hise, Syssy Admin
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >"Collage is the essential psychological identity of this century."
> > -Charles Amirkhanian
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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